tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post5422963697014742838..comments2023-05-15T07:29:55.403-07:00Comments on Fiddler's Edge: Unanticipated Macro Level OutcomesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-41424159965872197412011-03-28T22:38:57.160-07:002011-03-28T22:38:57.160-07:00I have come to this comment threat from ~the futur...I have come to this comment threat from ~the future~ to deliver the following message:<br /><br />Yeah, pretty much. The supercarrier changes were good when they were rare ships, like they were before dominion, but since then thousands of people with the isk and alts to fly them have come out of nowhere and today capital fleets are 50% supers. I was all for the SC buff when it happened, but it's time to admit they 0.0 sucks now because of them.Parasojahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10037396025518894441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-73937219934703161682011-02-19T20:00:26.208-08:002011-02-19T20:00:26.208-08:00When it comes to logistics, I kind of think there ...When it comes to logistics, I kind of think there IS an inherent problem when half of the universe is in one coalition (and the other half is botting away). <br /><br />I've been involved in a fair few conversations on the topic elsewhere, and the fundamental problem as I see it is that nullsec production is impossible. There is no possible way that an alliance with one station could ever produce all the modules it needs locally. This is partially due to ore availability, but largely also down to moongoo. Moon minerals cannot be locally sourced, which means that you need to be hauling oodles of the stuff from Jita to build T2 modules. If you're already in Jita, why not just buy the modules instead? <br /><br />Jump bridges are in my opinion part of a completely different discussion. I wouldn't say that jump bridges help in logistics as much as they're made out to, but are rather a component in force projection. I'm aware you've written on the subject before, but I think it pays to reiterate. Moving hundreds of ships across vast reaches of space (say Fountain to Geminate) in a dozen jumps or less is key to why the NC exists.<br /><br />A nerf to jump bridges, or their complete removal, would largely also solve supercap proliferation - yes, you could still drop a supercap fleet, but without a support fleet you're not going to catch much (and will be very vulnerable even if you do). And I doubt your Deklein-dweller will care to travel the 40-odd jumps to Geminate by gate, especially not through scary old Venal.Sebastianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07269511474857752744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-40617399623348483722011-02-17T07:13:37.971-08:002011-02-17T07:13:37.971-08:00I think that the devs at CCP should talk more to t...I think that the devs at CCP should talk more to their economist. This kind of thing is right up his alley. How will changes in some part of the game effect the economy...really would encompass much of what you discuss. A nerf to the SC and its impact on the economy would certainly be something he'd first try to model then when the nerf went live he'd look to see how well his models/theories worked and if they didn't why.<br /><br />Plus I bet he has had exposure to other things like game theory where one of the original uses was in strategic analysis. So even in terms of how combat might evolve he could be helpful in crafting a process to look at how things might change/evolve.<br /><br />Right now your TL;DR of half-assed reasoning followed by half-assed back end tweaking can of create more problems than it addresses is a good one. Same with your previous post where Grayscale's position of "you are sandboxing wrong" is also very good.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14487963350204619115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-24379911821355560682011-02-16T08:00:35.413-08:002011-02-16T08:00:35.413-08:00With Super Carriers (or Moms), as with Jump Freigh...With Super Carriers (or Moms), as with Jump Freighters, the difficulty was that nobody wanted one - player weighing the benefits of owning a Mom against its steep supercapital price found it a poor return on a rather steep investment. It had no role in the game. <br /><br />As with the Jump Freighter, the designers went overboard in adding value to the Mom in order to increase demand. They didn't think things through. Now they find themselves in a jam. <br /><br />The "You made me do it" excuse designers are leveling at the player base is just that - an excuse.Mord Fiddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01734756410122516725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-18118170160755573832011-02-16T07:25:55.542-08:002011-02-16T07:25:55.542-08:00Perhaps the problem was CCP paying too much attent...Perhaps the problem was CCP paying too much attention to the forums when re-balancing motherships the last time. At least they seem to think so:<br /><br />"A response was given, with a warning that it would be very controversial. Before the Super Carrier changes went live there was a rather large commotion regarding proposed changes to the initial design that had been advertised – there is little need to revisit that in detail. What is becoming clear however is that the changes might have been popular at the time, but are now a source of rather widespread discussion about whether or not the Super Carriers are overpowered. Certainly the changes (nerfs) proposed before the Super Carrier upgrade went live might not have been the optimal ones, and certainly the subject could have been revisited before the current trend of usage has become so strong – there is a shared responsibility when things are put into perspective. Maybe CCP should have stood firm against the players and forced the changes through? Perhaps players should have taken a step back and evaluated the whole thing on a larger timescale? The CSM did grant this point but did remind CCP that a history lesson would hardly solve anything."Tom Hoffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08577165613934129833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-45099536421995375472011-02-15T17:33:16.397-08:002011-02-15T17:33:16.397-08:00apropos:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp...apropos: <br />http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1468209&page=1#2<br /><br />"Of course, at a higher level the absence of a predator for the supercarrier is something that we are aware of and looking into good ways to approach that. If you happen to be going to fanfest, Game Design and Gridlock will be talking at length with you all on the many facets of large scale warfare in eve."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-16106716846212913672011-02-15T14:14:24.607-08:002011-02-15T14:14:24.607-08:00Xel - Sent you an ingame email on the topicXel - Sent you an ingame email on the topicMord Fiddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01734756410122516725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-56415982849614579272011-02-15T14:03:15.718-08:002011-02-15T14:03:15.718-08:00Well, forgive me for being blunt, but I don't ...Well, forgive me for being blunt, but I don't find this to be off topic just because you label it that way. You are saying the designers have a potential blind spot and a tendency toward "designer myopia". The illustrations you use serve to justify the thesis, so getting them right is pretty important in the absence of other, equally significant justification.<br /><br />I'm just saying, it's hard to agree with you (or anyone else making the case for supercarrier nerf) without understanding what about them needs to be reversed/changed. And I'm open to the idea, if I ever saw it spelled out.<br /><br />Somewhere along the way, I saw you had made a comment to the effect that CCP is running around making changes without letting things play out to any significant measure. To the extent that you are saying that, I would agree with you. But if that _is_ what you are implying here, it would seem to take away from the idea of nerfing supercarriers or anything else, at least without a pretty solid line of reasoning.<br /><br />I let it lie with that.Xel Sethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12138166462534504865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-52727156653976521422011-02-15T13:35:53.156-08:002011-02-15T13:35:53.156-08:00Xel,
In this case I use Jump Freighters and super...Xel,<br /><br />In this case I use Jump Freighters and supercapitals to illustrate potential blind spots in the designer view of the game - a tendency to hyperfocus on one change with an incomplete sense of its impact on the gestalt. Designer myopia, let's call it.<br /><br />I've allowed the comment thread to wander off topic and into supercarrier nerfland. Back on the path, folks.Mord Fiddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01734756410122516725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-81723482342622871182011-02-15T11:25:06.422-08:002011-02-15T11:25:06.422-08:00Mord, this post is the second time I've read y...Mord, this post is the second time I've read your - I would say, more than _implicitly_ - advocating the nerfing of supercarriers. You say that it's "troubling" that CCP won't even consider "minor tweaks".<br /><br />But unless I'm letting my ADHD get the best of me, something's missing, and I went back and re-read the prior relevant post (including all the comments) to be sure. Simply put, what changes do you envision as crucial and appropriate to restoring what you seem to indicate is an issue of imbalance in this matter?<br /><br />I have yet to see the reasons why spelled out by anyone, and choosing a side on the issue without knowing them proves very difficult.Xel Sethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12138166462534504865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-39987351996335437472011-02-15T09:43:09.367-08:002011-02-15T09:43:09.367-08:00Heh - The name just hit me Unn. Somebody's bee...Heh - The name just hit me Unn. Somebody's been dipping into their Icelandic sagas.Mord Fiddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01734756410122516725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-59871924359902821222011-02-15T09:14:35.692-08:002011-02-15T09:14:35.692-08:00Tom - I addressed much of this in my January 17 po...Tom - I addressed much of this in my January 17 post on the CSM minutes. <br /><br />My point here is that supercaps have been loosed on the game without anticipating the long term consequences which should have been evident. <br /><br />Vague discussion of supercapital nerfs needs to be taken in the context of the following clause in the CSM minutes: <br /><br />"However, at the same time, simply nerfing supercarriers will not solve the problem. Supercapitals present a unique problem – once a pod-pilot is installed in one, because the ship cannot be docked in a station, it is difficult to change ships. Thus a supercapital pilot is much more committed to his or her role than the pilot of other ships, and nerfing the ships so that they do not have significant utility imposes a great cost on those pilots."<br /><br />First time I read this I got all choked up about those poor supercapital pilots. Honestly, I think there were tears. <br /><br />Despite any talk of moving nerfing tier 60 carriers back to tier 3 carriers, the above text makes plain that the political will to do so doesn't exist.Mord Fiddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01734756410122516725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-67694595977412684052011-02-15T08:42:24.322-08:002011-02-15T08:42:24.322-08:00Just to clarify, I don't mean the edge of 0.0 ...Just to clarify, I don't mean the edge of 0.0 should be undesirable because it is resource-poor, but because it is remote. So you could scrape out a living there, but through self-sufficiency and local/regional trade.Tom Hoffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08577165613934129833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-85344510818725348402011-02-15T08:32:25.882-08:002011-02-15T08:32:25.882-08:00The CSM minutes are pretty clear on a supercarrier...The CSM minutes are pretty clear on a supercarrier nerf:<br /><br />"It was proposed that supercarriers become, in effect, tier-III carriers, as opposed to tier-LX (60!) as they are now; they should be better than regular carriers, but not 20x better. In addition to a HP reduction, this might include removing things that make them jack-of-all-trades ships (such as restricting them to fighter-bombers only). While it was clear that the exact changes will require much thought and planning (in particular, to ensure there is a role for dreadnaughts), the CSM was broadly supportive of the concept."<br /><br />Also, it is clear that they're considering various kinds of jump drive nerf, with a spool-up time getting the most mentions, but there are a variety of possibilities. <br /><br />Especially now that CCP can add cargo-specific holds to ships now (thus eliminating the hauling dreadnaught, etc), there is no reason they can't re-nerf freighters somewhat. Not so far as to make them useless, but enough to make the more remote parts of the universe act more remote. <br /><br />The underlying question to me is whether or not it is desirable for the edges of the cluster to permanently feel like the edge of the frontier, or like Finland or Mongolia historically. It would be cool to me if there were places to retreat to where you wouldn't be chased simply because they were too far out of the way to even worry about. <br /><br />The main drawback to this would be that the Drone Regions is the best example of this right now, and the response to undesirable space seems to be a proliferation of bots.Tom Hoffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08577165613934129833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-24152526274019745562011-02-15T06:50:51.260-08:002011-02-15T06:50:51.260-08:00"To me the biggest issue with CCP's desir..."To me the biggest issue with CCP's desires for nulsec is they seem to want it to look like lowsec, a place that most people agree is "broken" because nobody wants to live there."<br /><br />Point well taken, Nutimi. Consider that breaking nullsec may make lowsec a more attractive option by comparison. <br /><br />If you're not pretty enough to win the beauty contest the quickest and easiest fix is to ugly up the competition. ;)Mord Fiddlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01734756410122516725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-18558343646055310722011-02-15T06:12:03.722-08:002011-02-15T06:12:03.722-08:00Another great column.
What I really couldn't ...Another great column.<br /><br />What I really couldn't fathom about the discussion in December was their glee at creating The-Vision-esque misery for logistics was matched by their reluctance to do anything about supercaps. I suspect most of us in nulsec would erupt in cheers if the things just plain went away.<br /><br />To me the biggest issue with CCP's desires for nulsec is they seem to want it to look like lowsec, a place that most people agree is "broken" because nobody wants to live there.Numtinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04361603285866984443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8604973112865316634.post-69756471287968178092011-02-15T05:49:58.689-08:002011-02-15T05:49:58.689-08:00There are so many factors that have a subtle effec...There are so many factors that have a subtle effect null-sec mechanics; that CCPs seemingly reckless changes are never going to have the outcome they expect.<br /><br />It seems odd that CCP appear happy to drastically change the way that null-sec works, be appear unwilling to balance other aspects of the game.Dynamix Boonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17959945216644098180noreply@blogger.com