Last week we discussed why the 'Farms and Fields' changes to nullsec being advanced by The Mittani® hive mind cannot reasonably achieve its stated goal: Stocking nullsec with 'peasants' (i.e. industrialists and industrial infrastructure) for PvPers to to put to the sword. This being obvious to anyone who understands nullsec and the players involved, it follows that the hive mind must have an unannounced secondary goal (or set of goals) motivating the aggressive propaganda campaign for the proposed changes. Clues to the actual goals of the policy can be found in game design changes being demanded by The Mittani®'s propaganda machine.
A key design change being pushed by The Mittani® to 'fix' nullsec is adding special 'super' ores to nullsec in order to solve what the Goonswarm sock puppet parade have dubbed "The Tritanium Problem". In his November 27 article Addressing the Tritanium Problem, Goonswarm's Corestwo/Mynnna defines this 'problem' as "...the fundamental fact that sourcing large quantities of low end minerals and especially Tritanium is not feasible in nullsec".
Now, whenever anyone calls a cornerstone justification for awarding themselves some privileged position, status, handout or free lunch a "fundamental fact", it is a near certainty that said justification is, in fact, not a fact at all; fundamental or otherwise. Corestwo/Mynnna's so called 'Tritanium Problem is no exception to that rule. It is, as international trade economists put it, a fat load of hooey. Nullsec has plenty of low end ores for producing Tritanium. When Corestwo/Mynnna says mining low end ores in nullsec isn't feasible, he means the ISK return per hour on mining low end ores in nullsec is so low by nullsec standards that no one in nullsec wants to mine them.
In other words, nullsec alliances wishing to go into Tritanium-intensive manufacturing don't have sufficient labor willing to do the necessary low-end ore mining at a competitive wage. Highsec, on the other hand, is much more efficient at producing Tritanium owing to its larger and cheaper mining-sector labor force.
"I don't know, Mord," some of you will be thinking about now. "While I'm inclined to accept that premise at face value, I'd be much more comfortable with the idea if you expanded on it in a vast wall of text". Others of you, will be drumming your fingers impatiently about now and mumbling "TLDR already, Fiddle. Get to the effing point."
I am happy to oblige you both. For those of you with a passion for the wall of text, read on. For those of you in something of a hurry, meet me below where its says "TLDR: Veldspar is not being mined in nullsec because markets work."
We'll begin at the beginning: Mining is boring.
Most miners would agree. Oh, when the ore hold tops off there's a tiny stab of electricity, that most fundamental of video game rewards, but it's more akin to relief than accomplishment. The brain saying, oh thank god he's finished; maybe we can do something interesting now, like running a load of laundry or power washing the front walk. After an hour or so of solo belt mining one begins to wonder when the next Hulkageddon will inject a bit of excitement into the activity.
If there is pleasure to be found in mining, it is in mining with a crew. You watch each others' backs, joke and engage in the same sort of chatter that accompanies a long lull at a gate camp, an unproductive PvP roam, or the hurry-up-and-wait that accompanies most nullsec CTAs. But unlike those other activities, ISK pile up at an impressive rate when a good mining crew plies its trade. It doesn't provide the adrenaline jag of PvP, but the companionship and the ISK payout at the end make it worth while.
In my experience, fleet mining usually occurs in support of a corporation's manufacturing arm. The mining crew's pay-out for the ore they've harvested is usually made in Jita prices. A member of the corporation with perfect refining skills and good standing with the NPC corporation that owns the station refines the ores in order to maximize the mineral output. The minerals are then either sold or used as inputs to corporate manufacturing initiatives.
By highsec standards, a miner's payday is substantial for the level of skills required. A solo miner in a Retriever with excellent Veldspar mining and refining skills can make five to ten million ISK an hour selling at current Tritanium prices (bearing in mind the time needed to transport the refined minerals to an optimal market for sale is not included). Working with a crew can bring efficiencies such as Orca and fleet boosts into play, increasing the per miner ore yield. However, depending on how the proceeds are paid out (for example, does the corporation keep a percentage of the minerals? Do haulers who don't mine get the same split as the miners? Is the local sale price of the minerals significantly higher than Jita prices?) the actual per hour payday for a fleet op may not exceed that of the solo miner by much. Always read the fine print.
Bear in mind too, that mineral yields from ore in highsec is often reduced due to refining using less than perfect skills and/or at stations where the NPC corporation retains part of the refinery yield due to the player's less that optimal standings. Performance, as they say, may vary.
Recall the Space Noob of Innocents Abroad; gleeful over having accumulated 700K ISK over several days. To new players, a million ISK is a small fortune. To them, five to ten million ISK per hour is an almost inconceivable income stream. Mining is, by design, one of the best ways for a newish industrial player to build up a bankroll for purchasing more advanced ships, modules and skills. As a result, there is a vast workforce of cheap labor plying the highsec asteroid belts; happily mining low-value rock, and supplying a steady stream of Tritanium and Pyrite to empire's manufacturing lines.
Mining in nullsec is an altogether different breed of cat. In nullsec, the target of choice for miners are the ABC ores; Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite, which yield relatively large amounts of high-value minerals. However, outpost refineries work at a 30% efficiency at best, as opposed to 50% in empire and at some NPC nullsec stations. Adding insult to injury, as refinery use-fees are an income stream for nullsec outpost owners, such fees tend to be quite steep and wildly uncompetitive with use-fees in empire and NPC nullsec. To the enterprising nullsec bear, the answer is obvious: The high value-ores are compressed using a Rorqual, jumped back to empire, and refined at a station near a market hub. From there they either feed into the bear's empire production lines or are sold at market. The jump freighter then returns to nullsec loaded up with finished goods to sell.
In nullsec, ores of lower value than our ABC ores tend to be overlooked. The low-value ores are not cost effective to mine, compress and transport to empire for refining. Compressing and transporting mid-value ores may return a marginal profit, but not enough of one to make them of interest to the mining bear. The real ISK are in ABC ores. Even if outpost refineries operated at the same efficiency as those in empire stations, low end ores like Veldspar would rarely be mined in nullsec. Though Tritanium is selling at near record highs in empire, the same return per hour on mining Velspar and its humble brethren delivers too low an ISK return on hours of labor to to be attractive to nullsec miners.
Even refined Tritanium dropped by nullsec anomaly hauler rats is regarded as not worth the time and trouble of transporting back to station and is routinely left floating in space even after the wreck that held it is salvaged.
There are far fewer miners in nullsec than in empire. Those skilled miners that do abide in nullsec have income streams available to them that are more lucrative (and more entertaining) than mining Veldspar. Thus, even though there is plenty of Veldspar lying around in nullsec, there is no financial incentive for the pilots with the appropriate skills to mine it. Simply put, the cost of labor in nullsec is too high to generate and move around enough Tritanium to support a robust ship building industry.
TLDR: Veldspar is not being mined in nullsec because markets work.
So, owing to its higher labor costs, nullsec is less efficient than empire at producing low-end ores. This is a commonplace scenario in international trade economics, and economics offers a number of remedies to it. However, economic solutions appear to be of little interest to Corestwo/Mynnna, Goonswarm's self-proclaimed 'guru of economics & all-around maven in Eve". Faced with a problem rooted in market economics, he prefers to change New Eden's geology: If low end ores are not valuable enough compete for the nullsec miner's attention, then new super-ores must be provided nullsec miners that will. As Corestwo/Mynnna describes the design goal of super ores:
"A miner in nullsec should want to mine any and all of the ores. While maintaining perfectly even isk/hour values is not possible (short of replacing all ores with a single mineral nougat that provides all minerals), even the 'worst' of ores should represent a considerable boost in income over those found in highsec."
In other words, Nullsec workers are so wealthy they can't be bothered to bend over to pick up a nickle, and Corestwo/Mynnna's answer is to populate nullsec with special nullsec nickles that spend like dollars. Encumbered with an inefficient labor force, The Mittani® hive mind wants special super-ores with yields of low-end minerals so vast that they off-set the inefficiencies of said labor force. And apparently nullsec inefficiencies extend to the work involved in thinking. It is far easier to cry 'unfair', weep Goon tears and demand New Eden's entire geology and economy be changed to nullsec's exclusive advantage than to HTFU (as Goons are quick to say) and think through a solution given the existing mechanics.
It would seem the bar for becoming 'guru of economics' in Goonswarm is not high one.
Now, last week I pointed out that changes associated with 'peasants to the sword' were all one sided; allowing nullsec in general (and Goonswarm in particular) new competitive benefits while giving up none of their existing advantages. Likewise, Corestwo/Mynnna calls for super-ores to be handed to nullsec without surrendering any of nullsec's current geological advantages.
Nullsec (and wormholes) will continue to be the only source for high-end minerals, specifically Zydrine and Megacyte, As a result, they must continue to overproduce these minerals for export to highsec.
This is key. The nullsec members of the CSM have already insisted that they want to be independent from empire. However, based on the changes desired, they want this to be a one-way street. They do not want empire independent from nullsec. They want empire to remain dependent upon nullsec coalitions for high-end minerals, moon-goo and the more lucrative inputs to production. They want to maintain a monopoly on their large bore ISK faucets, while denying empire (and highsec in particular) access to meaningful incomes. They want jump freighters and a long trade reach without the attendant market competition. They don't want there to be competitive advantage trade-offs between empire and nullsec; they want nullsec's advantages to be absolute and all-encompassing.
They wish to burn Jita without being burned themselves.
'Why?' You might ask, 'Is Goonswarm's propaganda machine, which previously sneered at industrial Eve beyond Supercapitals and moon goo's easy money, suddenly gone all a-flutter over the industrial game? Has The Mittani® caught a case of carebear fever?'
In part three, we'll address that question.
It's certainly true there's an attachment to economically irrational behaviour amongst null sec miners, at least the ones in my alliance. Even when the isk/m3 ranking was 1) Mercoxit 2) Ark 3) Veld they all wanted to mine ABC ores. Also they seem very loathe to mine belts rather than grav sites even when they could cherry pick the belts and the grav site has been cherry picked by other people.ReplyDelete
Regarding Mittani.com it's certainly a site with an in-game agenda but generally I like Mynna's articles. He may be disingenuous at times like all the goons but he really does know the eve economy.
Regarding super-ores, it's not the minutia the small details that matter it's the big picture. Should high sec be low risk low reward? In that case surely we need to tighten up how easy and effective suicide ganking is. Or maybe all of Eve is dangerous in which case why does the CSM argue that null income should be higher. I suspect that statistically it's more dangerous to mine in high sec and what's more you can mine in null and never get ganked except by your own mistakes but in high sec you can't prevent suicide ganks.
Mord, you choose to ignore the real world that Mynnna pointed out to you upfront. Nullsec miners mine in GRAV sites, not in belts. While there may be Veld aplenty, it is all in BELTS. As a nullsec miner previously living in low truesec systems, I NEVER mined even the named ABC ores in a belt except to raise the industry level high enough to spawn the first grav site. It is impossible for a serious miner to live on ABC ores alone anyway. If I mine for 12 hours, ABCs will only be available for about 45-60 minutes of that. A miner in an established system will almost exclusively recycle the large/x-large grav site over and over REGARDLESS of the type of ore it contains. So much for your "can't be bothered to bend over to pick up a nickle" nonsense. Again, Mynnna pointed out the grav sites lack Trit-bearing ores (even providing you easily understood charts) but I see you choose to pander to the theorycrafters/conspiracy-theorists and trolls instead of looking at actual behaviors. You are soliciting for eyeballs after all.ReplyDelete
If your article stated something about "if they want Trit, they should get their heads outta the grav sites and into belts," I would grudingly agree even though it would mean having to move system to system to find enough belts...yes my multibox fleet alone would need at least 20 belts to allow for max asteroid size. I would also agree with the end of your article about goonspiracies and propaganda. But as is, you totally miss the mark on the "problem" of Trit mining in nullsec.
Mordis - Silly rabbit.Delete
As you point out, there is 'Veldspar aplenty' in nullsec.
Current nullsec mining practices are irrelevant. Mynna's grav site charts are irrelevant. Whether nullsec miners habitually mine in grav sites, belts or under their great aunt Fannies' seat-cushions is irrelevant.
Nullec miners choose where they mine in order to optimize ISK per hour. It is not an aesthetic choice. It is an economic choice based on ISK returned per hour invested.
It is a question of labor.
If there is plenty of Veldspar in nullsec, and nullsec miners want the Tritanium that Veldspar yields, they will go mine the Veldspar. If they are not mining the Veldspar, it is because the isk per hour return isn't sufficient to motivate that behavior.
The rest is mere hand waving.
At the end of the day the demand for Super-ores is nothing more than a demand for a special one-dollar nickle in nullsec.
"I see you choose to pander to the theorycrafters/conspiracy-theorists and trolls instead of looking at actual behaviors. You are soliciting for eyeballs after all."Delete
This is not a counter-argument. This is 'Reducto ad Tinfoilhatium': Eve's variation on Godwin's Law. You are unable to effectively attack the argument, so you attack the integrity of the person presenting the argument.
Shame on you, Mordis. You're better than that.
"[Mynna] may be disingenuous at times ... but he really does know the eve economy."ReplyDelete
I will grant you disingenuous. However, he's shown me nothing support the latter.
I think he's made an awful lot of isk :)Delete
Remarkably, there's very little correlation between making money and understanding how economies functions. Quite the opposite, in fact.Delete
"700K ISK over several days" Those were the days. We didn't have any of these fancy "Venture" mining frigate in them days. None of this millions from PI for 2 minutes work a day nonsense that I only just found out about. In fact I remember when space was ALL fields and my ships were rolled up newspapers I found in t'bin.ReplyDelete
( add Yorkshire space accents according to taste )
Such a clever reduction to the facts of economy. This will go to my stream !ReplyDelete
The only real space that has issues with low-end minerals, is wormhole space.ReplyDelete
Yes, WH have ABC ores, and mid ores, and some low end ores. But only in Grav sites. There are no belts in wh space.
But without NPC stations, only 50% refining ability, we are cursed with compressing our ores and hauling through tiny, temporary openings to hi/losec for refining. And then hauling the minerals back in, if we are manufacturing inside the wh. Most WH corps use hisec alts to mine the needed low end minerals.
The unimaginable luxury of null sec, and its belts of ores of all stripes is counteracted by the fact that it is conquerable space and that the logistics of easy super cap fleet movement make independent ownership nigh-on impossible. So, here in the WH, we are happy with the lot we have and don't whine (too much) about the logistical effort needed to live here, because that logistical effort is what keeps the null-sec alliances out of our hair.
If null-sec wants to make mining low end minerals a worth while effort, then simply reduce the ISK/hr benefit of other null sec activities in comparison. If folks weren't rolling in ISK, they'd find the return in low end mining sufficiently worthwhile.
You are upset that the rock stars in your null-sec Hollywood don't cut their own grass ? Pay gardeners to do it. Oh, gardeners don't want to cut grass at the prices you're offering in your area because of the risks involved, then either pay more or cut the damn grass yourself. Don't just sit their and moan that the grass-deities of this world haven't given you magic grass that is so valuable that cutting your lawn is equally as valid for rock stars and their lawyers.
I would be remiss if I didn't point out that, back when he was still an individual, Mittens pressed the idea of removing the limited amount of ABC ores from WH space. As I recall, then as now, the justification had to do with making the game 'fair'.Delete
Ah Here we are. A thread from August 2011 that quotes from (I believe) a Goonion speech: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1563748Delete
And a forum thread beginning with a quote from the CSM minutes in which all Nullsec CSM members insist ABC minerals do not belong in WH space. Note the 'day-tripper' quote: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1550142Delete
Some on the CSM thought there were asteroid belts in WH space! I acknowledge their opinions on this matter, but do not assign much value to them.
Having said that, I would be more than happy to give up ABC ores, or all ores all together, so long as all moon goo was only able to be ring-mined in WH space :)
Trade and resource distribution are key elements in EVE; to diminish their roles would be a mistake. Null sec must be reliant, in some meaningful way, on both losec and hisec (and wh space). Similarly, lo and hisec must need null sec.
I cannot fathom the null sec alliances that have so much ISK they can offer PVP ship replacement policies (Alliance sponsored PVP), but refuse to implement policies to sponsor resource collection activities to benefit the industrial core they claim to desire. There are so many mechanisms already available in game to support this.
I entirely agree with your premise, its not a mineral problem, its a labour problem.
When I mine in null I don't cherry pick and will happily clear out those last rocks nobody wants. But I mine for personal production, not for profit.ReplyDelete
I admit I haven't done any mining the last 2 weeks because one cloaky neut can shut down a system entirely.
What makes mining unprofitable for me is that I mine in one system. Have to haul minerals to a second station for refining and then to a third station with free production slots.
(I don't have an orca/jump freighter so use a deep space transport that can hold 30k m3)
You suffer because the alliance that owns your space hasn't optimized the location of stations and the associated use fees to create incentives for production.Delete
The problem with industry in nullsec is with nullsec management, not nullsec mechanics.
Good post and excellent facts...thanks for posting!!ReplyDelete